tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10881824.post7011693214129668267..comments2024-02-17T07:44:05.334-08:00Comments on Sinning Boldly: Thrown OutAnonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17835278970174444409noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10881824.post-32923535588400682612007-12-10T09:46:00.000-08:002007-12-10T09:46:00.000-08:00Sorry it took me so long to respond to this but I ...Sorry it took me so long to respond to this but I think you hit my comments on the mark.<BR/><BR/>I went back and saw some of the follow-up comments when someone noted that beer is flowing in Africa. This may be true, but beer was also flowing in Ireland and Poland until they joined the EU and got rich. Then church attendance fell like a rock. <BR/><BR/>Is affluence and relative comfort the enemy of religion? And if so, what does that say about what we have to offer? Relative comfort and affluence is something everyone naturally wants. Who wouldn't rather rather live in a middle class home in the Portland, OR suburbs than in a mud hut in Nigeria worried about whether their child will survive to the age of 5, whether militias from the neighbouring ethnic group will kill their family or where their next meal will come from. I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting the former, but it certainly seems to kill the desire to be involved in church.<BR/><BR/>I think, paradoxically, mainstream Christianity is a victim of its own success. We took Christ's command to help the poor and created the welfare state (under attack in the US but intact elsewhere) and gave 95+% of the population 3 square meals and a roof over their heads. We took the Biblical concept of human dignity and created Universal Human Rights Declarations, Bills of Rights and Charters of Rights and Freedoms, labour and housing codes, food and water safety standards which everyone must be accountable to. We took Biblical concepts of justice and created transparent government and court systems which usually work fairly. People don't feel a need to turn to church for these needs. <BR/><BR/>So now how do we engage people? The overwhelming perception people I know have is that the messages of God and love are wonderful but once you join the church you become part of a moral (particularly sexual) regulation society that uses threats of hell as a weapon. Many have had enough education to find elements of the Christian story - God becoming human, resurrections, heaven/hell, miracles hard to understand but feel that unless they believe them literally, they cannot belong.toujoursdanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08106158181662408311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10881824.post-75345112278470676132007-10-13T13:40:00.000-07:002007-10-13T13:40:00.000-07:00No, it's definitely not a bad thing if people stop...No, it's definitely not a bad thing if people stop coming to church who aren't serious about it. That said, while I'm happy to level a judgment like that against our culture, I would be much slower to point it at any individual.<BR/><BR/>But the real issue I think we need to face is that for whatever reason Christianity is tepid, at best, and often distasteful to many people, and, more to the point, we need to face the fact that often this is our fault.<BR/><BR/>The "selling" that Pastor David cites is a prime example of this.Andy Kaylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01863052203418450397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10881824.post-109538077402528872007-10-13T06:48:00.000-07:002007-10-13T06:48:00.000-07:00I wonder if your problem is not based on the fact ...I wonder if your problem is not based on the fact that Christianity in the past has been too successful? In some places there were people going to church simply because it was a status thing to do. If church no longer carries the status it used to, then fewer people will attend church, but is that a bad thing?Steven Craig Millerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12406726074219330716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10881824.post-16967628660557976132007-10-12T20:33:00.000-07:002007-10-12T20:33:00.000-07:00I think you're definitely right that we need to st...I think you're definitely right that we need to stop selling, at a minimum, but I'm not sure being nicer is enough. It's a good start, but lots of people are nice. It seems to me that we need to be doing something extraordinary.<BR/><BR/>Then again, maybe Christians being nice would be extraordinary enough.Andy Kaylorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01863052203418450397noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-10881824.post-58344729623356643162007-10-12T15:57:00.000-07:002007-10-12T15:57:00.000-07:00Given that (a) many don't want what we are selling...Given that (a) many don't want what we are selling, and (b) we aren't very effective at it, I think that part of the answer is we need to stop selling.<BR/><BR/>Stop selling the church, stop selling Jesus, and start living the life to which we have been called. How many would come to the church, if church-people seemed...well, nicer? How many would come to the church if its primary focus was a life of true community?<BR/><BR/>People know when we are being disengenuous with them. They know if we are friends with them for the sake of evangelism. They know if we are talking up our congregation just to bring them in. It is time to stop seeing the unchurched as "its", and start to live into a I-Thou relationships. There is, quite simply, no better evangelism than abandoning the selling-model.Pastor Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09494101435500835028noreply@blogger.com